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on this episode of skeptic Oh everything

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that I saw from the data about HIV

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testing did not fit with the idea of it

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being a sexually transmitted infection

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and again that's the impetus of your

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argument as I get it which is that it

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just doesn't fit not that you know what

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the answer is or once you have some

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insight into the cure for AIDS or the

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cause for AIDS or anything like that but

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it's just that you keep stumbling across

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this obvious problem with the existing

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theory another piece I ran across in

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your work is you know african-american

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women in the United States this is from

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the the UN the official group for

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publishing this data but if you're an

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african-american woman in the United

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States 2010 20 times more likely to be

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HIV positive what's possible how could

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this possibly fit with the existing idea

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of how aids is spread contracted how HIV

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is spread contracted and am i right

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there is it you're right I mean they go

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through extraordinary contortions to try

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to offer explanations for that but the

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the thing is that in 20 or 25 years aids

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hiv/aids has supposedly changed from a

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disease largely restricted to gay white

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men into something that largely effects

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the black community and especially black

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and on this

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show a dialogue I've been looking

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forward to for a long time you know it

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was probably 5 or 6 years ago that I

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first heard about our guest dr. Henry

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Bauer and I heard about him through what

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seemed to me at the time a very strange

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and radical idea he had about the

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relationship between aids and HIV now my

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journey through that I think is is kind

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of telling because it's about my

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skeptical journey in general and that I

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heard this guy and I realized right away

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that he had some very solid credentials

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and he seemed like a really smart guy

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and he was associated with the Society

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for scientific exploration an

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organization I knew that had very high

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standards and yet he was saying this

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really radical thing and I investigated

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it but I really only scratched the

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surface and then I did something I

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floated that idea out there I think I

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think it was in a forum poster in

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response to someone that hey you know

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maybe this aids HIV thing isn't what we

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think I just got beaten down battered by

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whoever responded and said you idiot you

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know here is this and here is this

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research and you know you don't know

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what you're talking about and I didn't

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know what I was talking about and I

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really didn't have the time or the

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inclination to investigate it very much

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further but I always had it in the back

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of my mind so when the opportunity came

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up to talk to dr. Bower and I got my

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hands on his book dogmatism in science

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and medicine I saw it as a real

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opportunity for the new 3.0 me who is a

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little bit smarter a little bit more

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savvy about how these research

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monopolies and knowledge cartels are

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formed and protected and how dogmatism

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and science exists I thought it was a

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great opportunity to jump in and

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investigate it through this dialogue and

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I'm really glad I did I hope you'll

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enjoy this dialogue we talked about a

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number of things including why science

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is so dogmatic how bad it really is for

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dissenters spoiler alert it's really

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really bad I

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why sometimes sound very pessimistic

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about the prospects for science I think

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I'm even more so after hearing some of

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the tales that dr. Bauer has to tell we

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also talk about what can be done I'm not

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sure much can but dr. Bauer has some

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ideas and a little bit about this

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specific case of the relationship

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between AIDS and HIV which i think is

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fascinating because as you'll find out

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the big picture data doesn't really

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support what you've been told about that

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relationship so I greatly enjoyed this

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dialogue I hope you'll enjoy it too

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here's my conversation with dr. Henry

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Bauer today we welcome dr. Henry Bauer -

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skeptic Oh dr. Bauer's a distinguished

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academic a chemist by training whose

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interest in science studies led him to

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become the Dean of Arts & Sciences at

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Virginia Tech he's the author of several

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books including dogmatism in science and

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medicine how dominant theories

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monopolize research and stifle the

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search for truth Henry it's a great

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pleasure to have you on skeptic oh

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thanks so much for joining me well thank

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you very much for having me so you know

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your book covers a topic that I think

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many of our listeners are gonna be very

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familiar with that is the dogmatism that

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you find in science or I guess I always

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say science as we know it because

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science means a lot of different things

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to a lot of different people and when

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you start bashing science a lot of

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people want to talk about the pure

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science and the ideals of science but

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I've always maintained that we can only

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talk about the science that we deal with

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that we confront in our day to day lives

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that we confront in universities that

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has taught to us and to our kids and all

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the rest of that so and I think that's

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the science that you're really talking

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about yeah exactly and and that's one of

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the most important points that people's

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general impression of science has to do

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with ideals and ideals that were based

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on a science of

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centuries ago and it's just not

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applicable to science nowadays can you

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tell us a little bit Henry how you first

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became interested in these ideas I get

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the sense that you're maybe a little bit

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of a contrarian to begin with but I mean

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here you are you're moving along as a

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professional an academic and all these

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ideas that you're talking about really

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couldn't have you must that you must

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have saw early on that these were not

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good career moves for you to kind of

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take these positions absolutely not and

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I actually didn't start life as a crumb

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Terraria and I don't believe I I was

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turned on to chemistry in high school

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and went through the usual sort of

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training and postdoc and did research

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and taught chemistry and but I always

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read very widely and one day I picked up

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a book called Loch Ness monster and I

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knew like everybody knows that Loch Ness

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monster is a myth and it's an old wives

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tale and so on but as i leafed through

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the book I found stills from a film that

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the author claimed to have taken of the

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of this creature so I borrowed the book

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and and read it and I couldn't make up

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my mind whether the author was telling a

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true story certainly if he had a film of

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something moving in the lock then there

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was something there to be explained so

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then I wanted to find out what science

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says about it and I couldn't find

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anything

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you know the encyclopedias had one

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little paragraph nothing in the

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professional literature

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and that started me wondering why

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science ignores some things that so many

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people are interested in mm-hmm so at

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that point independent of whether or not

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you could establish this kind of

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cryptozoological fact that this thing

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did exist or not you just took it that

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hey there's a lot of people who are

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really interested in this and there's

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some evidence that it might be true why

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isn't it being investigated

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exactly so I I read whatever I could

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about it

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and I joined something called the Loch

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Ness Investigation Bureau that sent out

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newsletters I was in Australia at the

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time by the way and then in the mid

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sixties I emigrated to the States and in

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the early 70s I took a sabbatical leave

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to do some chemistry at Southampton in

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England and I took a vacation a spring

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vacation trip up to Loch Ness and

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believe it or not I I met there the

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author of that book that it first got me

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interested in it and he told told me

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about some underwater photographs that

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had just been taken and so I began to be

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serious about the possibility of that

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creature and when I got back from

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sabbatical I was at the University of

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Kentucky and and it was just very high

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on interdisciplinary research projects

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they thought that was the coming thing

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so I thought we'll put in a grant to

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study scientists attitudes towards

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things like the Loch Ness monster and I

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had a group of a historian and a

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sociologist and a philosopher

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and we put in a grant proposal and it

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was not granted but several of the

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commentators said look if you understudy

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a really substantial topic of scientists

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not taking things seriously that they

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should why don't you look into the

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Velikovsky affair well I'd never heard

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of that

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but I thought I bet a head and and so I

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read up on that Velikovsky was a

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psychoanalyst who in around 1950

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published a book that was a wet

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bestseller a popular bestseller called

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worlds in collision in which he

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interpreted all sorts of biblical

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references and old legends and so on in

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terms of a scenario where a comet had

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come out of Jupiter and came close to

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Earth and that explained the parting of

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the Red Sea and and things of that sort

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and of course he was viciously attacked

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by scientists but when I read about

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their attacks I was taken aback because

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what they were doing were really

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criticizing Velikovsky's qualifications

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his approaches and so on but they were

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not really grappling with the specific

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substantive claims he had made like that

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Venus would turn out to be hotter than

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people presently thought and that

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Jupiter would be found to be issuing

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radio noise which was not known at that

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time

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so it seemed to me that scientists were

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not really behaving scientifically in

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approaching these issues that really

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cough skeered raised and so I decided to

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write a book called Velikovsky and the

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Loch Ness monster about one thing

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the Velikovsky claims which turned out

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not to be well-founded and the other one

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the Loch Ness business one where the

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claims are pretty well founded and it

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became too much for one book and those

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who were my first two books in sort of

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being skeptical about how science

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behaves but the most important result

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was that through my publisher sending

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these drafts of books out for critiquing

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I met marchello A through Z who was a

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sociologist long interested in

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scientific unorthodox ease and he was in

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on a newly founded society the Society

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for scientific exploration and through

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becoming a member of that group I came

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to realize how many different fields of

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science are ignoring strong evidence of

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unorthodox phenomena and so then I never

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really looked back I I was so interested

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in those things that I decided I wanted

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00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:00,420
to change my academic career from

275
00:15:07,390 --> 00:15:03,990
chemistry to history and philosophy

276
00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:07,400
sociology of science which

277
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:10,070
nowadays is called science studies or

278
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:17,330
science and technology studies and to

279
00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:19,970
make that change

280
00:15:26,830 --> 00:15:23,270
I needed some respite from being a

281
00:15:29,170 --> 00:15:26,840
professor of chemistry where of course I

282
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:29,180
was expected to do chemistry all the

283
00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:32,570
time and to get grants in that and and

284
00:15:38,730 --> 00:15:34,640
so I looked for some for an

285
00:15:42,130 --> 00:15:38,740
administrative job to give me time to

286
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:42,140
get qualified in in history and

287
00:15:49,150 --> 00:15:45,890
sociology of science and I was lucky

288
00:15:53,710 --> 00:15:49,160
enough to get the job here at Virginia

289
00:15:58,300 --> 00:15:53,720
Tech which is just endowed marvelously

290
00:16:01,630 --> 00:15:58,310
well for me but when you mentioned that

291
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:01,640
these interests are hardly good for

292
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:04,970
building a career one of the things that

293
00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:11,210
I did pretty consciously was not to set

294
00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:14,260
myself up as someone who was claiming

295
00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:18,260
the validity of any of these particular

296
00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:24,700
things I was doing scholarly studies of

297
00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:29,420
the controversies about these things

298
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:33,800
and you know that's a legitimate sort of

299
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:36,560
thing to do when you're someone working

300
00:16:41,830 --> 00:16:39,890
in science studies yes I think you you

301
00:16:44,380 --> 00:16:41,840
make that distinction very nicely

302
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:44,390
although sometimes you do let slip in

303
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:46,850
there a little bit of your of your of

304
00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:49,910
your research which is to be I'm glad

305
00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:52,670
you do and and I love the the kind of

306
00:16:58,060 --> 00:16:54,980
phrase that I think captures a lot of

307
00:17:01,000 --> 00:16:58,070
this is the suppression of competent

308
00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:01,010
minority views yeah that's what I think

309
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:03,680
you're kind of battling against in your

310
00:17:08,650 --> 00:17:06,770
book you introduced two phrases that I

311
00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:08,660
think encapsulate a lot of the ideas

312
00:17:15,130 --> 00:17:10,480
you're talking about knowledge

313
00:17:17,650 --> 00:17:15,140
monopolies in research cartels tell

314
00:17:21,870 --> 00:17:17,660
folks real quickly what you mean yeah

315
00:17:24,550 --> 00:17:21,880
knowledge monopolies I would define as

316
00:17:29,010 --> 00:17:24,560
something that has come to be so

317
00:17:33,730 --> 00:17:29,020
generally accepted that almost everybody

318
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:33,740
believes it to be true and anybody who

319
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:36,530
denies it as more or less automatically

320
00:17:40,930 --> 00:17:39,290
regarded as a kook a couple of quick

321
00:17:42,580 --> 00:17:40,940
examples that you mentioned in the book

322
00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:42,590
and that some people will be familiar

323
00:17:50,260 --> 00:17:46,340
with one is HIV causes AIDS

324
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:50,270
second global warming a third is big

325
00:17:55,330 --> 00:17:52,850
bang theory all these are outlined in

326
00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:55,340
the book and I think that again the

327
00:18:02,380 --> 00:17:58,250
position you take is not coming out

328
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:02,390
strongly that a particular contrary view

329
00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:06,170
deserves our overthrowing of the

330
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:09,200
consensus view but just that there needs

331
00:18:15,090 --> 00:18:11,090
to be more of a give-and-take of

332
00:18:18,670 --> 00:18:15,100
exploring the the incompleteness of the

333
00:18:22,060 --> 00:18:18,680
accepted knowledge monopolies would you

334
00:18:25,990 --> 00:18:22,070
really yeah yes exactly I I mean I I

335
00:18:29,950 --> 00:18:26,000
think I acknowledge that I personally

336
00:18:33,670 --> 00:18:29,960
happen to be on the dissident side of

337
00:18:37,510 --> 00:18:33,680
those things but the point of the book

338
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:37,520
is not to convince other people of that

339
00:18:45,370 --> 00:18:40,370
it is to convince people that there

340
00:18:48,610 --> 00:18:45,380
hasn't been a proper engagement between

341
00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:48,620
the mainstream view and the dissident

342
00:18:58,110 --> 00:18:53,150
view that's really the the crux of the

343
00:19:04,110 --> 00:18:58,120
problem that you can publish critiques

344
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:04,120
in even in some pretty well-established

345
00:19:15,130 --> 00:19:08,650
publishing houses but you cannot force

346
00:19:18,130 --> 00:19:15,140
the prevailing experts to answer and so

347
00:19:22,270 --> 00:19:18,140
you have these in effect research

348
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:22,280
cartels because nowadays it's very

349
00:19:28,780 --> 00:19:26,000
difficult to find any areas in which you

350
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:28,790
can do research without considerable

351
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:33,170
resources which means that the research

352
00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:34,490
that gets done

353
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:37,460
is pretty much determined by the people

354
00:19:45,370 --> 00:19:41,360
who hold the purse strings and those

355
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:45,380
people take their advice of course from

356
00:19:55,690 --> 00:19:50,890
the recognized mainstream experts so

357
00:20:02,500 --> 00:19:55,700
this there's a lack of a forum a lack of

358
00:20:06,460 --> 00:20:02,510
a place where the two or more points of

359
00:20:11,010 --> 00:20:06,470
view can engage in a substantive way

360
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:11,020
where they can argue in a way that

361
00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:14,890
they're forced to answer one another

362
00:20:21,970 --> 00:20:17,990
specifically that they cannot evade one

363
00:20:25,150 --> 00:20:21,980
another and I've come more and more to

364
00:20:28,660 --> 00:20:25,160
the notion that what we need is a

365
00:20:31,630 --> 00:20:28,670
so-called science Court this is

366
00:20:36,340 --> 00:20:31,640
something that was actually proposed 50

367
00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:36,350
or more years ago you know just after

368
00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:39,500
the Second World War there was a lot of

369
00:20:46,450 --> 00:20:41,960
to do about the possible safety or

370
00:20:48,850 --> 00:20:46,460
otherwise of nuclear power yeah but but

371
00:20:51,010 --> 00:20:48,860
Henry I think a science court this is

372
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:51,020
the point which is what's really behind

373
00:20:56,049 --> 00:20:53,510
these knowledge monopolies and what's

374
00:20:58,810 --> 00:20:56,059
really behind these research cartels so

375
00:21:00,400 --> 00:20:58,820
if I can I want to set that aside for

376
00:21:01,570 --> 00:21:00,410
just a second and we'll get back to it

377
00:21:04,090 --> 00:21:01,580
because it's a point I think is very

378
00:21:05,410 --> 00:21:04,100
interesting but what I want to do is you

379
00:21:07,470 --> 00:21:05,420
know this idea that you're talking about

380
00:21:09,850 --> 00:21:07,480
I think everyone kind of nods their head

381
00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:09,860
until you get into the specifics and

382
00:21:14,530 --> 00:21:12,230
then it kind of drives at home here is

383
00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:14,540
your position statement as I understand

384
00:21:20,049 --> 00:21:18,620
it on the hiv-aids connection and now it

385
00:21:22,690 --> 00:21:20,059
should be noted because this is your

386
00:21:25,450 --> 00:21:22,700
point really that for this you have been

387
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:25,460
kind of tarred and feathered as an aids

388
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:30,050
denialist you know homophobic that every

389
00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:32,000
other horrible thing that can be thrown

390
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:34,220
at you from an ad hominem attack basis

391
00:21:39,299 --> 00:21:36,530
as be thrown on you and here is what I

392
00:21:42,370 --> 00:21:39,309
understand to be your position statement

393
00:21:45,580 --> 00:21:42,380
subjective grounds for doubting that HIV

394
00:21:47,030 --> 00:21:45,590
is the necessary and sufficient cause of

395
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:47,040
AIDS

396
00:21:53,540 --> 00:21:50,480
and that antiretroviral treatment is

397
00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:53,550
unambiguously beneficial so now if we

398
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:55,860
really kind of tear that apart I mean I

399
00:22:00,920 --> 00:21:57,330
read that and that doesn't sound

400
00:22:02,510 --> 00:22:00,930
anything too radical really you're just

401
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:02,520
saying hey there might be grounds for

402
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:06,330
doubting that this is that HIV is always

403
00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:08,400
in every case necessary and sufficient

404
00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:10,380
for causing AIDS you're you're not

405
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:12,180
saying that there isn't any link there

406
00:22:16,370 --> 00:22:14,250
but that the link isn't maybe the way

407
00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:16,380
we've thought it to be and secondly

408
00:22:22,970 --> 00:22:19,470
you're saying that for that reason maybe

409
00:22:25,310 --> 00:22:22,980
this antiretroviral treatment which we

410
00:22:28,550 --> 00:22:25,320
spent billions and billions of dollars

411
00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:28,560
on on a global on a global basis maybe

412
00:22:32,810 --> 00:22:31,260
that isn't unambiguously beneficial

413
00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:32,820
maybe it isn't beneficial in every

414
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:36,780
single case so for this for this you are

415
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:41,130
an AIDS denier but so I think the first

416
00:22:45,470 --> 00:22:43,650
thing to do would be to back this up a

417
00:22:46,970 --> 00:22:45,480
little bit yeah and I don't want to get

418
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:46,980
too far into the details of this because

419
00:22:52,340 --> 00:22:49,440
again your book is it talks about

420
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:52,350
broader issues of from science input but

421
00:22:56,090 --> 00:22:54,090
we have to give specific examples

422
00:22:58,730 --> 00:22:56,100
because I think this alone for people

423
00:23:00,410 --> 00:22:58,740
who are uninitiated will come as as

424
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:00,420
somewhat of a shock and they will be in

425
00:23:04,130 --> 00:23:02,130
that same position that a lot other

426
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:04,140
people are as hey this guy's wack

427
00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:06,720
dungeon AIDS denier sure I'd give us

428
00:23:11,900 --> 00:23:09,510
some some fast fast facts that that just

429
00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:11,910
kind of make this glaringly true well

430
00:23:19,330 --> 00:23:15,540
you know I my generally interest in

431
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:19,340
scientific on orthodoxies led me to read

432
00:23:25,550 --> 00:23:22,890
whatever I could wherever I would find

433
00:23:28,690 --> 00:23:25,560
out about somebody that denied a

434
00:23:31,820 --> 00:23:28,700
mainstream position and so in the

435
00:23:35,090 --> 00:23:31,830
mid-1950s I came across the fact that

436
00:23:36,260 --> 00:23:35,100
some people claimed that HIV doesn't

437
00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:36,270
cause AIDS

438
00:23:42,220 --> 00:23:39,180
so I read quite a bit about that and

439
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:42,230
then this is in when the nineteen amid

440
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:48,110
1950s nineteen sorry 1990s mid 1990s

441
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:53,330
there was a book by Ellison and Duisburg

442
00:23:59,610 --> 00:23:57,570
about it and so you know it was

443
00:24:05,100 --> 00:23:59,620
interesting I didn't come down

444
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:05,110
on one side or the other but around 2003

445
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:10,240
or 2004 Harvey bialy published what he

446
00:24:17,730 --> 00:24:12,970
called a scientific biography of Peter

447
00:24:22,049 --> 00:24:17,740
Duesberg who was the main dissident

448
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:22,059
against hiv/aids theory and in that book

449
00:24:28,650 --> 00:24:24,970
there was a statement that I knew simply

450
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:28,660
couldn't be true it said that when the

451
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:33,010
army first started to test new recruits

452
00:24:42,180 --> 00:24:38,880
for HIV and that was in the mid 1980s

453
00:24:44,430 --> 00:24:42,190
they found the teenage women from all

454
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:44,440
over the country in the United States

455
00:24:52,290 --> 00:24:48,910
were HIV positive as often as teenage

456
00:24:56,820 --> 00:24:52,300
boys now that couldn't be true because

457
00:25:00,740 --> 00:24:56,830
the official position was that HIV came

458
00:25:05,790 --> 00:25:00,750
to the United States around the late

459
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:05,800
1970s and it came in only amongst groups

460
00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:10,570
of gay men in a few large cities Los

461
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:14,700
Angeles San Francisco New York well a

462
00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:19,320
sexually transmitted disease largely

463
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:23,590
transmitted between among gay men could

464
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:27,010
not possibly have spread all over the

465
00:25:33,810 --> 00:25:31,210
United States in half a dozen years in

466
00:25:38,460 --> 00:25:33,820
such a way that you would find teenage

467
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:38,470
women in Montana being HIV positive as

468
00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:42,850
often as teenaged boys there so I

469
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:44,710
thought that could that statement

470
00:25:49,799 --> 00:25:47,410
couldn't be correct I looked up the

471
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:49,809
original reference that's what the

472
00:25:58,740 --> 00:25:54,910
primary source said you never can accept

473
00:26:03,890 --> 00:25:58,750
a single source in science so I looked

474
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:03,900
at other data about HIV testing in the

475
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:09,490
1980s and I tell you this it became the

476
00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:13,170
most emotionally difficult time

477
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:19,550
I can remember as as an adult because

478
00:26:26,810 --> 00:26:22,290
everything that I saw from the data

479
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:26,820
about HIV testing did not fit with the

480
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:29,760
idea of it being a sexually transmitted

481
00:26:35,450 --> 00:26:33,090
infection and again that's I think that

482
00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:35,460
the the impetus of your of your argument

483
00:26:40,340 --> 00:26:37,710
as I get it which is that it just

484
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:40,350
doesn't fit not that you know what the

485
00:26:46,190 --> 00:26:43,770
answer is or what you have some insight

486
00:26:47,570 --> 00:26:46,200
into the cure for AIDS or the cause for

487
00:26:50,410 --> 00:26:47,580
AIDS or anything like that but it's just

488
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:50,420
that you keep stumbling across this

489
00:26:55,670 --> 00:26:53,730
obvious problem with the existing theory

490
00:26:58,580 --> 00:26:55,680
another piece I ran across in your work

491
00:27:02,060 --> 00:26:58,590
is you know african-american women in

492
00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:02,070
the United States this is from the the

493
00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:04,230
u-men the official group were publishing

494
00:27:06,830 --> 00:27:05,700
this data but if you're an

495
00:27:12,350 --> 00:27:06,840
african-american woman in the United

496
00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:12,360
States 2010 20 times more likely to be

497
00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:16,980
HIV positive what's possible how could

498
00:27:24,050 --> 00:27:20,430
this possibly fit with the existing idea

499
00:27:26,930 --> 00:27:24,060
of how AIDS is spread contracted how HIV

500
00:27:29,390 --> 00:27:26,940
is spread contracted and am i right

501
00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:29,400
there is it you're right I mean they go

502
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:32,910
through extraordinary contortions to try

503
00:27:41,180 --> 00:27:35,760
to offer explanations for that but the

504
00:27:47,150 --> 00:27:41,190
the thing is that in 20 or 25 years aids

505
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:47,160
HIV AIDS has supposedly changed from a

506
00:27:57,290 --> 00:27:52,410
disease largely restricted to gay white

507
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:57,300
men into something that largely effects

508
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:01,200
the black community and especially black

509
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:06,890
women and you know it makes no sense the

510
00:28:16,180 --> 00:28:10,130
when I had first analyzed those

511
00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:16,190
collected those data on HIV tests I

512
00:28:26,180 --> 00:28:21,270
wrote to the CDC to ask them are these

513
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:26,190
regularities I'm seeing real and if so

514
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:29,130
how do you explain

515
00:28:37,430 --> 00:28:34,050
and I didn't get a reply for a while I

516
00:28:40,910 --> 00:28:37,440
had to keep pushing but eventually I got

517
00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:40,920
a short reply saying that the

518
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:44,040
regularities that I saw are genuine they

519
00:28:50,890 --> 00:28:47,370
are real but the difference between

520
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:50,900
white and black can be explained on a

521
00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:54,000
behavioral basis yeah yeah they don't

522
00:28:56,990 --> 00:28:55,620
realize that they're stepping into there

523
00:28:59,900 --> 00:28:57,000
but I guess they've gotten away with it

524
00:29:02,780 --> 00:28:59,910
so why not yeah they happen and you know

525
00:29:05,090 --> 00:29:02,790
that it's about as racist the stereotype

526
00:29:07,940 --> 00:29:05,100
as you can imagine completely and worth

527
00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:07,950
the data to back that up actually I

528
00:29:15,550 --> 00:29:12,000
found a number of references that's tell

529
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:15,560
you the contrary there are some social

530
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:18,930
sociological studies that seem to find

531
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:21,810
that black people are a bit more careful

532
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:24,960
in their sexual relationships than white

533
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:30,330
people are in the US and in Africa but

534
00:29:37,850 --> 00:29:32,610
you know at the very least there's

535
00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:37,860
absolutely no no evidence that that

536
00:29:42,910 --> 00:29:40,200
black people are more likely to be

537
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:42,920
sexually promiscuous in this

538
00:29:46,970 --> 00:29:45,330
extraordinary way one of the things you

539
00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:46,980
do a great job of doing in the book

540
00:29:54,260 --> 00:29:51,150
Henry is personalizing this story from

541
00:29:55,490 --> 00:29:54,270
the standpoint of a scientist and tell

542
00:29:57,230 --> 00:29:55,500
us a little bit about what you've

543
00:29:59,900 --> 00:29:57,240
encountered because you have run across

544
00:30:01,880 --> 00:29:59,910
people who have been blindsided by this

545
00:30:03,770 --> 00:30:01,890
I mean they're they're they're competent

546
00:30:06,140 --> 00:30:03,780
hard-working scientists that are kind of

547
00:30:08,930 --> 00:30:06,150
plugging along in their field and they

548
00:30:11,180 --> 00:30:08,940
unknowingly stumble into a situation

549
00:30:14,150 --> 00:30:11,190
where they find themselves running up

550
00:30:16,430 --> 00:30:14,160
against one of these monopolies and they

551
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:16,440
really are are blindsided aren't they

552
00:30:22,850 --> 00:30:18,450
they tell us some of the cases you run

553
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:22,860
into absolutely blindsided I mean Peter

554
00:30:30,590 --> 00:30:26,130
Duesberg as the outstanding example of

555
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:30,600
that he was one of the most widely

556
00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:36,090
acclaimed virologists in fact retroviral

557
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:39,750
adjusts he got one of the

558
00:30:46,370 --> 00:30:43,050
most eminent to research grants from the

559
00:30:49,730 --> 00:30:46,380
National Institutes of Health a grant

560
00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:49,740
that gets you funded for seven years

561
00:30:55,940 --> 00:30:53,760
without you having to reapply for it he

562
00:30:59,330 --> 00:30:55,950
was elected to the National Academy of

563
00:31:04,010 --> 00:30:59,340
Sciences as a young relatively young

564
00:31:08,980 --> 00:31:04,020
researcher and all that happened was

565
00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:08,990
that when in the early days of the AIDS

566
00:31:17,410 --> 00:31:13,110
discovery he wrote an article from the

567
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:17,420
basis of his knowledge of retroviruses

568
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:20,490
saying you know you can't a retrovirus

569
00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:25,050
can't do what it's being claimed it can

570
00:31:34,130 --> 00:31:30,440
do all of a sudden he was excommunicated

571
00:31:39,070 --> 00:31:34,140
Robert Gallo who was head of the

572
00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:39,080
National Cancer Institute who had

573
00:31:47,050 --> 00:31:42,980
introduced this Berg in glowing terms

574
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:47,060
for a seminar a little while earlier

575
00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:51,690
turned around completely and would not

576
00:31:58,450 --> 00:31:55,710
even discuss the question with Duisburg

577
00:32:01,730 --> 00:31:58,460
in fact he and other people actually

578
00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:01,740
threatened to boycott conferences

579
00:32:13,270 --> 00:32:07,740
if Duisburg was allowed to attend you

580
00:32:18,370 --> 00:32:13,280
know totally extraordinary situation

581
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:18,380
Gordon Stewart is a British of Scottish

582
00:32:25,550 --> 00:32:22,320
epidemiologist who was a consultant to

583
00:32:30,260 --> 00:32:25,560
the World Health Organization amongst

584
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:30,270
other things and when the aids business

585
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:35,250
started he pointed out that all of the

586
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:39,690
data indicated that it was not a

587
00:32:46,570 --> 00:32:42,450
sexually transmitted disease because it

588
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:46,580
was not leaving the original risk groups

589
00:32:58,700 --> 00:32:53,490
this was in the 1980s where you know

590
00:33:02,899 --> 00:32:58,710
until about the early 1990s HIV and AIDS

591
00:33:06,430 --> 00:33:02,909
were pretty much found only amongst gay

592
00:33:10,010 --> 00:33:06,440
men in in Britain where Stewart was

593
00:33:14,269 --> 00:33:10,020
taking the data as well as in the United

594
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:14,279
States and and the Stewart was unable to

595
00:33:22,909 --> 00:33:19,770
get his studies published even though

596
00:33:26,450 --> 00:33:22,919
you know he was personally known to

597
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:26,460
people in the professional societies and

598
00:33:34,909 --> 00:33:30,090
as I say it had he had had a an imminent

599
00:33:39,850 --> 00:33:34,919
career as an epidemiologist here he was

600
00:33:43,549 --> 00:33:39,860
writing about epidemiology his specialty

601
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:43,559
and he was being suppressed he wasn't

602
00:33:51,289 --> 00:33:47,730
being listened to and as a matter of

603
00:33:55,580 --> 00:33:51,299
fact you know his his unpublished

604
00:33:59,120 --> 00:33:55,590
articles have been borne out by by later

605
00:34:04,549 --> 00:33:59,130
data to these predictions were correct

606
00:34:08,419 --> 00:34:04,559
and and the opposing predictions were

607
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:08,429
wrong in the book you have an idea for

608
00:34:11,659 --> 00:34:10,290
how this has come about and one of the

609
00:34:15,290 --> 00:34:11,669
claims you make is that this is a

610
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:15,300
relatively recent phenomena that we find

611
00:34:22,129 --> 00:34:18,450
inside yes these the extent to which

612
00:34:24,379 --> 00:34:22,139
these monopolies and cartels exert their

613
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:24,389
influence you make the claim that in

614
00:34:29,139 --> 00:34:26,639
your career you've seen a shift yeah

615
00:34:33,020 --> 00:34:29,149
tell us what you think is behind that

616
00:34:35,780 --> 00:34:33,030
it's actually it's money to put it to

617
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:35,790
put it in the simplest possible way but

618
00:34:43,329 --> 00:34:38,129
how's the money changed science has

619
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:43,339
become important back in the 1913 to the

620
00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:47,970
1930s the general societal view was that

621
00:34:52,820 --> 00:34:50,879
you know science is a good thing and we

622
00:34:56,389 --> 00:34:52,830
know about these great people like

623
00:34:59,089 --> 00:34:56,399
Darwin and Einstein and so on but what

624
00:35:04,040 --> 00:34:59,099
people were doing didn't require much

625
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:04,050
money and the consequences of what they

626
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:07,290
were finding out didn't seem to be

627
00:35:15,290 --> 00:35:10,170
of startling importance for any

628
00:35:19,570 --> 00:35:15,300
near-term big ventures or big

629
00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:19,580
money-making things second world war

630
00:35:26,990 --> 00:35:23,310
changed all sorts of things

631
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:27,000
that's when penicillin antibiotics came

632
00:35:36,590 --> 00:35:30,800
in and medicine supposedly could become

633
00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:36,600
scientific and do wonders in terms of

634
00:35:45,470 --> 00:35:40,800
saving people's lives and of course the

635
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:45,480
atom bomb showed that physicists were

636
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:48,810
able to do things that could lead to

637
00:35:55,930 --> 00:35:54,570
nations winning wars so after the Second

638
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:55,940
World War there was a tremendous

639
00:36:05,420 --> 00:36:00,320
expansion of money to train new

640
00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:05,430
scientists and to fund science and when

641
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:07,110
I came to the States

642
00:36:17,450 --> 00:36:12,090
in the mid-60s from Australia it was a

643
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:17,460
golden era just about anybody who was

644
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:20,730
trained in science at just about any

645
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:25,250
university or College could get funding

646
00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:29,760
and what has happened is that the number

647
00:36:36,290 --> 00:36:33,150
of people supposedly engaged in

648
00:36:40,850 --> 00:36:36,300
scientific research has expanded

649
00:36:44,590 --> 00:36:40,860
enormously and the amount of money being

650
00:36:48,070 --> 00:36:44,600
poured into it expanded enormously and

651
00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:48,080
then there came a bit of a crisis

652
00:36:56,660 --> 00:36:53,220
because the amount of resources just

653
00:36:58,910 --> 00:36:56,670
couldn't keep up with the demand well

654
00:37:01,700 --> 00:36:58,920
with the demand in one respect I think

655
00:37:03,860 --> 00:37:01,710
the scenario you paint very nicely is

656
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:03,870
that in some respects I see it as a kind

657
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:06,720
of classic labor versus management issue

658
00:37:10,610 --> 00:37:08,730
and that yeah there's this period where

659
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:10,620
there's this just kind of free money

660
00:37:15,830 --> 00:37:12,650
everyone's flowing around and then

661
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:15,840
people are learning where to find the

662
00:37:19,340 --> 00:37:17,520
cheese so they're kind of following the

663
00:37:21,299 --> 00:37:19,350
path and get more research grants get

664
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:21,309
more publications get more stew

665
00:37:25,529 --> 00:37:23,890
turn out more PhDs and everyone's kind

666
00:37:27,449 --> 00:37:25,539
of going along these assumptions and at

667
00:37:29,309 --> 00:37:27,459
one point somebody turns around and

668
00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:29,319
shuts down the faucet on the money and

669
00:37:34,019 --> 00:37:31,390
says hey we need to get some results off

670
00:37:37,469 --> 00:37:34,029
of this again classic management

671
00:37:39,390 --> 00:37:37,479
employees the labor the labor pool is

672
00:37:41,699 --> 00:37:39,400
saying we just want to do our job we

673
00:37:43,739 --> 00:37:41,709
just want to be creative and management

674
00:37:47,279 --> 00:37:43,749
is saying hey it's up to my bottom line

675
00:37:49,589 --> 00:37:47,289
I want to make money that's part of it

676
00:37:53,419 --> 00:37:49,599
but there is also another part of it and

677
00:37:56,909 --> 00:37:53,429
that is that so many research

678
00:37:59,179 --> 00:37:56,919
universities got established or other

679
00:38:02,849 --> 00:37:59,189
colleges turned into research

680
00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:02,859
universities and all of those wanted to

681
00:38:09,449 --> 00:38:06,160
pour out as many graduates and potential

682
00:38:13,589 --> 00:38:09,459
researchers as possible but the market

683
00:38:18,019 --> 00:38:13,599
was saturated there were about a hundred

684
00:38:22,890 --> 00:38:18,029
hundred and fifteen or so PhD granting

685
00:38:25,979 --> 00:38:22,900
universities in the 1940's and 30 years

686
00:38:29,819 --> 00:38:25,989
later in the nineteen in the United

687
00:38:33,989 --> 00:38:29,829
States there were three times as many so

688
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:33,999
and you know the the the cutthroat

689
00:38:41,429 --> 00:38:39,130
nature of research now goes like this if

690
00:38:44,429 --> 00:38:41,439
you're a biologist and you're applying

691
00:38:47,309 --> 00:38:44,439
for a grant to the National Institutes

692
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:47,319
of Health which is the main funding

693
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:50,890
source your chances of getting a grant

694
00:38:57,359 --> 00:38:55,359
are less than one in five think about

695
00:39:02,039 --> 00:38:57,369
that hmm

696
00:39:06,289 --> 00:39:02,049
furthermore the average age at which a

697
00:39:08,939 --> 00:39:06,299
young or new investigator gets their own

698
00:39:13,919 --> 00:39:08,949
individual grant as a principal

699
00:39:16,769 --> 00:39:13,929
investigator is in the early 40s you're

700
00:39:19,049 --> 00:39:16,779
essentially in a limbo depending on

701
00:39:22,789 --> 00:39:19,059
other people until you're in your early

702
00:39:26,819 --> 00:39:22,799
forties I mean it's it's become a

703
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:26,829
ridiculously cutthroat and ineffective

704
00:39:32,140 --> 00:39:30,170
as the situation

705
00:39:35,019 --> 00:39:32,150
well it just shifts the power more and

706
00:39:38,410 --> 00:39:35,029
more to those funding agencies be they

707
00:39:42,519 --> 00:39:38,420
the National Institute for Health or Big

708
00:39:46,509 --> 00:39:42,529
Pharma or Big Oil or big whoever they

709
00:39:48,819 --> 00:39:46,519
now can really demand more and influence

710
00:39:51,490 --> 00:39:48,829
more and that's not necessarily that's

711
00:39:55,180 --> 00:39:51,500
right they controlled things and the

712
00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:55,190
people who control things including the

713
00:40:01,480 --> 00:39:58,880
established people in a Kadeem and not

714
00:40:05,799 --> 00:40:01,490
going to give up their status and their

715
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:05,809
privileges and part of that status and

716
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:08,690
privilege of course depends on the

717
00:40:17,279 --> 00:40:12,410
theories that they claim to be true so

718
00:40:20,799 --> 00:40:17,289
we've got a circumstance where new ideas

719
00:40:24,009 --> 00:40:20,809
don't just meet the normal sort of

720
00:40:29,319 --> 00:40:24,019
resistance that human beings have to new

721
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:29,329
ideas but the old ideas are entrenched

722
00:40:36,279 --> 00:40:34,400
by a tremendous group vested interests

723
00:40:39,999 --> 00:40:36,289
who control the funding and the

724
00:40:42,069 --> 00:40:40,009
publication and the promotion and so on

725
00:40:43,660 --> 00:40:42,079
and that's really kind of a tricky issue

726
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:43,670
isn't it because I think we're

727
00:40:48,940 --> 00:40:46,490
conditioned to think that science is all

728
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:48,950
about innovation but also that that

729
00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:51,890
industry is all about innovation and

730
00:40:55,509 --> 00:40:53,660
that these breakthrough products and

731
00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:55,519
breakthrough technologies are what's

732
00:40:59,920 --> 00:40:57,440
really driving industry and when you

733
00:41:01,749 --> 00:40:59,930
really pull it apart like you do you

734
00:41:05,819 --> 00:41:01,759
really find that in many respects

735
00:41:09,490 --> 00:41:05,829
industry is anti innovation anti

736
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:09,500
especially disruptive technologies so if

737
00:41:15,579 --> 00:41:12,130
you're for example in the business of

738
00:41:18,279 --> 00:41:15,589
refining and distributing oil products

739
00:41:21,370 --> 00:41:18,289
then you really don't have a strong

740
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:21,380
vested interest in low energy nuclear

741
00:41:27,789 --> 00:41:24,170
reaction or cold fusion as it's known

742
00:41:30,789 --> 00:41:27,799
yeah that's a that's a disturbing at the

743
00:41:32,620 --> 00:41:30,799
technology that completely disrupts your

744
00:41:33,940 --> 00:41:32,630
way of business and the same thing is

745
00:41:36,910 --> 00:41:33,950
true in pharmaceuticals and everyplace

746
00:41:40,089 --> 00:41:36,920
else so I think we have to sort out what

747
00:41:42,730 --> 00:41:40,099
kind of innovation is really allowed and

748
00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:42,740
it becomes a pretty narrow little path

749
00:41:48,339 --> 00:41:43,910
that these guys

750
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:48,349
yeah because it's the bottom line of

751
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:52,490
profit that is the driving force and and

752
00:42:01,120 --> 00:41:57,410
that is made all the so much worse

753
00:42:05,500 --> 00:42:01,130
because of all the conglomeration that

754
00:42:08,980 --> 00:42:05,510
has gone on the I've read quite a bit

755
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:08,990
recently about the pharmaceutical

756
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:13,130
industry for example and 50 years ago

757
00:42:20,049 --> 00:42:15,680
there were lots of rather small drug

758
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:20,059
companies and CEOs of those companies

759
00:42:29,940 --> 00:42:24,319
typically were people with MD degrees or

760
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:29,950
who had been in in research nowadays

761
00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:33,680
drug companies are a relatively small

762
00:42:42,370 --> 00:42:38,960
number of conglomerates and the CEOs

763
00:42:45,490 --> 00:42:42,380
typically come from sales marketing or

764
00:42:51,549 --> 00:42:45,500
business management it's a completely

765
00:42:55,510 --> 00:42:51,559
different cast of mind and the notion

766
00:43:00,839 --> 00:42:55,520
that profits come first then are imposed

767
00:43:04,180 --> 00:43:00,849
from the top and you know when people

768
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:04,190
worry or or criticize government

769
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:07,450
bureaucracy it's not generally

770
00:43:14,430 --> 00:43:10,640
recognized that bureaucracy is just as

771
00:43:17,849 --> 00:43:14,440
bad in large companies you you get

772
00:43:20,980 --> 00:43:17,859
bureaucracy whenever there are big

773
00:43:24,579 --> 00:43:20,990
enterprises and you've got hierarchies

774
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:24,589
and you've got subdivisions and you got

775
00:43:34,349 --> 00:43:31,250
separation of of responsibilities and so

776
00:43:37,630 --> 00:43:34,359
you can have some very dysfunctional

777
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:37,640
situations coming about let's talk a

778
00:43:41,589 --> 00:43:39,680
little bit about conspiracies because

779
00:43:45,549 --> 00:43:41,599
you pull up short of drawing the line

780
00:43:48,130 --> 00:43:45,559
between these instances of dogmatism and

781
00:43:50,109 --> 00:43:48,140
monopolies and cartels in science and

782
00:43:52,569 --> 00:43:50,119
medicine and are what are commonly

783
00:43:55,059 --> 00:43:52,579
referred to as conspiracy theories in

784
00:43:57,490 --> 00:43:55,069
fact you say knowledge monopolies are

785
00:44:00,370 --> 00:43:57,500
not willful conspiracies

786
00:44:03,690 --> 00:44:00,380
that sounds nice and safe but is that

787
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:03,700
really the case well I I define

788
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:07,010
conspiracy as people deliberately

789
00:44:16,270 --> 00:44:11,710
bringing about circumstances that they

790
00:44:20,050 --> 00:44:16,280
fully know are purely for their own

791
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:20,060
benefit and not to anybody else's well

792
00:44:23,890 --> 00:44:22,160
that's a that's a pretty well that's a

793
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:23,900
pretty narrow description and it gets

794
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:25,760
into be a slippery slope let me throw

795
00:44:29,650 --> 00:44:28,250
out a story let me tell you a story one

796
00:44:32,020 --> 00:44:29,660
that I'm sure you're probably familiar

797
00:44:37,090 --> 00:44:32,030
with but there's probably many listeners

798
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:37,100
here or not and that's in 1985 Monsanto

799
00:44:41,430 --> 00:44:38,960
purchased a little company called Cyril

800
00:44:44,140 --> 00:44:41,440
& Company because they had a patent on

801
00:44:48,340 --> 00:44:44,150
aspartame you know the little NutraSweet

802
00:44:50,620 --> 00:44:48,350
if blue thing right and the FDA had

803
00:44:54,070 --> 00:44:50,630
already banned aspartame because it was

804
00:44:56,020 --> 00:44:54,080
unsafe but they went out Monsanto and

805
00:44:58,930 --> 00:44:56,030
Searle went out and they hired Donald

806
00:45:01,600 --> 00:44:58,940
Rumsfeld secreto Secretary of State

807
00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:01,610
Donald Rumsfeld there is no building

808
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:03,440
seven what's building seven Donald

809
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:06,770
Rumsfeld that guy who vowed to call in

810
00:45:11,710 --> 00:45:09,440
his markers those were his words to get

811
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:11,720
it approved now what's the result of

812
00:45:15,820 --> 00:45:13,760
that if you go down any supermarket and

813
00:45:18,430 --> 00:45:15,830
pick up a can of Diet Coke Diet Pepsi

814
00:45:20,650 --> 00:45:18,440
any soft drink and you read the back of

815
00:45:22,240 --> 00:45:20,660
it it's got aspartate on it you got any

816
00:45:26,740 --> 00:45:22,250
restaurant get those little blue packets

817
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:26,750
aspartame so here's a case where this is

818
00:45:32,650 --> 00:45:29,690
clearly a conspiracy it's science

819
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:32,660
is the pawn in the game but what's

820
00:45:37,630 --> 00:45:35,210
really going on is big business billions

821
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:37,640
of dollars made by Searle and Monsanto

822
00:45:42,430 --> 00:45:40,130
millions and millions of dollars made by

823
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:42,440
Rumsfeld many people don't realize the

824
00:45:47,260 --> 00:45:44,690
wealth that that guy accumulated from

825
00:45:49,750 --> 00:45:47,270
this single COO that he was able to pull

826
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:49,760
off in terms of doing an end run on the

827
00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:52,480
FDA doesn't this kind of stuff go on

828
00:45:59,250 --> 00:45:55,310
time and time again and it's just

829
00:46:03,820 --> 00:45:59,260
underneath our personal radar well

830
00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:03,830
Rumsfeld by the way is also making money

831
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:06,470
through Gilead which is one of the

832
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:08,450
biggest manufacturers of the

833
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:11,450
antiretroviral drug

834
00:46:18,579 --> 00:46:14,170
and in particular those that are being

835
00:46:23,430 --> 00:46:18,589
currently touted as a prevention against

836
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:23,440
the infection but we think Rumsfeld

837
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:26,950
believed he was doing something wrong

838
00:46:35,049 --> 00:46:31,130
say I don't I think human beings have a

839
00:46:39,279 --> 00:46:35,059
tremendous capacity for not seeing facts

840
00:46:43,509 --> 00:46:39,289
that that contradict what their beliefs

841
00:46:49,269 --> 00:46:43,519
are and a way of just shoving aside not

842
00:46:52,269 --> 00:46:49,279
thinking about unpleasant things here's

843
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:52,279
a here's a possible scenario somebody

844
00:47:00,269 --> 00:46:55,930
comes to Rumsfeld and and says look

845
00:47:04,299 --> 00:47:00,279
aspartame has got a a bad reputation and

846
00:47:07,870 --> 00:47:04,309
undeservedly bad reputation here are a

847
00:47:11,319 --> 00:47:07,880
couple of my well-qualified friends who

848
00:47:15,009 --> 00:47:11,329
can tell you about that can you help us

849
00:47:18,279 --> 00:47:15,019
to get around this situation absolutely

850
00:47:22,210 --> 00:47:18,289
I mean in some respects though you're

851
00:47:25,029 --> 00:47:22,220
defining in the clearest way the the

852
00:47:28,029 --> 00:47:25,039
origins of evil right I mean however you

853
00:47:31,390 --> 00:47:28,039
define an evil I mean that is it it's

854
00:47:33,549 --> 00:47:31,400
always the end justifies the means and

855
00:47:35,789 --> 00:47:33,559
every act that we could have the most

856
00:47:40,620 --> 00:47:35,799
horrible acts that we can imagine are

857
00:47:44,249 --> 00:47:40,630
justified in just that way right it's

858
00:47:48,910 --> 00:47:44,259
you know what I what I would say is that

859
00:47:52,089 --> 00:47:48,920
human beings have we we all have a

860
00:47:55,359 --> 00:47:52,099
capacity to get caught up in things

861
00:47:59,289 --> 00:47:55,369
where later we would wish we hadn't and

862
00:48:05,049 --> 00:47:59,299
that one part of what we need as a

863
00:48:09,269 --> 00:48:05,059
solution is a systemic situation where

864
00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:09,279
things can be done openly and where

865
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:13,839
responsibility is seen to lie clearly

866
00:48:23,690 --> 00:48:20,400
secrecy as you know as a is a great help

867
00:48:26,660 --> 00:48:23,700
to the wrong things being done some of

868
00:48:29,930 --> 00:48:26,670
the people who have written about what's

869
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:29,940
wrong with present-day medicine have

870
00:48:37,070 --> 00:48:33,090
pointed out that the clinical trials of

871
00:48:39,980 --> 00:48:37,080
drugs can be carried out without the

872
00:48:42,020 --> 00:48:39,990
results being published if the people

873
00:48:47,210 --> 00:48:42,030
who carried them out don't want to

874
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:47,220
publish them so that a lot of drugs have

875
00:48:55,370 --> 00:48:51,570
apparently been approved because the FDA

876
00:48:58,340 --> 00:48:55,380
was given a couple of successful trials

877
00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:58,350
and there were a dozen unsuccessful

878
00:49:04,730 --> 00:49:01,680
trials hidden away in drawers somewhere

879
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:04,740
the file drawer problem yeah dr. Barr

880
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:08,690
what are some practical and realistic

881
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:11,280
changes that you'd like to see that

882
00:49:15,590 --> 00:49:13,440
could really come about I mean given

883
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:15,600
that we're playing on a much bigger

884
00:49:20,450 --> 00:49:18,000
field than we can ever imagine and we'll

885
00:49:23,090 --> 00:49:20,460
never know all the power structures that

886
00:49:26,510 --> 00:49:23,100
exist in and what amount of influence

887
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:26,520
they have realistically what can be done

888
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:29,450
and what might be done you've got to get

889
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:33,810
some sort of political influence and

890
00:49:39,170 --> 00:49:35,760
that's pretty difficult at the moment

891
00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:39,180
because things are so ideologically

892
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:43,110
split so you got to try to find some

893
00:49:52,060 --> 00:49:47,130
sort of things that seem good to both

894
00:49:56,210 --> 00:49:52,070
sides and I think that openness of

895
00:50:03,110 --> 00:49:56,220
critiquing and data and so on is one

896
00:50:08,060 --> 00:50:03,120
possibility for that that's what I mean

897
00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:08,070
about the the science court what I would

898
00:50:16,450 --> 00:50:12,510
like to see is a situation where Peter

899
00:50:22,130 --> 00:50:16,460
gallo a Peter Duesberg and Robert Gallo

900
00:50:25,250 --> 00:50:22,140
are presenting opposing sides in a forum

901
00:50:28,670 --> 00:50:25,260
where there are independent evaluators

902
00:50:31,220 --> 00:50:28,680
present and each of them is allowed

903
00:50:32,930 --> 00:50:31,230
perhaps with the assistance of of

904
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:32,940
lawyers or whatever

905
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:36,450
each is allowed to cross-examine the

906
00:50:43,730 --> 00:50:40,410
other person so you would begin with a

907
00:50:48,589 --> 00:50:43,740
claim like carbon dioxide in the

908
00:50:53,839 --> 00:50:48,599
atmosphere is appreciably contributing

909
00:50:56,870 --> 00:50:53,849
to warming okay the person proposing

910
00:51:01,370 --> 00:50:56,880
that is asked to provide the evidence

911
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:01,380
and then each little bit of evidence can

912
00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:03,810
be argued about but it's got to be done

913
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:08,510
in public where people can see how the

914
00:51:15,620 --> 00:51:12,089
reactions go you know one of the things

915
00:51:19,220 --> 00:51:15,630
I'm trying to tell people is you should

916
00:51:23,569 --> 00:51:19,230
not be afraid of judging technical

917
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:23,579
issues what you can do is you can look

918
00:51:31,309 --> 00:51:27,690
at the way in which people respond if

919
00:51:36,260 --> 00:51:31,319
you ask Robert Gallo what is the proof

920
00:51:39,740 --> 00:51:36,270
that HIV causes AIDS he'll fly off the

921
00:51:42,230 --> 00:51:39,750
handle he'll say they've been hundreds

922
00:51:44,950 --> 00:51:42,240
of thousands of papers published about

923
00:51:49,550 --> 00:51:44,960
it why don't you go and read them and

924
00:51:52,010 --> 00:51:49,560
this is not an answer but the media have

925
00:51:57,620 --> 00:51:52,020
been letting him get away with it for 30

926
00:52:01,809 --> 00:51:57,630
years so I think forcing people to

927
00:52:05,109 --> 00:52:01,819
answer publicly is an important issue

928
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:05,119
isn't it would be an important

929
00:52:10,370 --> 00:52:07,680
contribute at the things getting better

930
00:52:15,380 --> 00:52:10,380
but I don't think it can be done

931
00:52:21,109 --> 00:52:15,390
effectively through committee hearings

932
00:52:25,370 --> 00:52:21,119
in Congress because the observers and

933
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:25,380
the media in particular automatically

934
00:52:31,089 --> 00:52:29,250
dismiss what the experts say who are on

935
00:52:33,109 --> 00:52:31,099
the other side of the political spectrum

936
00:52:35,300 --> 00:52:33,119
well and it's not always on the

937
00:52:38,450 --> 00:52:35,310
political spectrum it's all often just

938
00:52:41,450 --> 00:52:38,460
they're very much into defending the

939
00:52:44,420 --> 00:52:41,460
status quo and and we don't know exactly

940
00:52:46,310 --> 00:52:44,430
what is the the impetus for that

941
00:52:49,370 --> 00:52:46,320
what is the controlling factors for the

942
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:49,380
but it's clearer and it's obvious as far

943
00:52:53,300 --> 00:52:51,210
as your other point and with the science

944
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:53,310
Court I mean a couple obvious problems I

945
00:52:59,840 --> 00:52:55,770
see with it is one is that we're doing

946
00:53:01,580 --> 00:52:59,850
an under on on science now we have to

947
00:53:04,730 --> 00:53:01,590
admit that the peer review process

948
00:53:08,630 --> 00:53:04,740
doesn't work that the the whole

949
00:53:10,970 --> 00:53:08,640
enterprise of unbiased investigation and

950
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:10,980
discovery has kind of failed and we need

951
00:53:14,570 --> 00:53:13,050
this kind of patchwork fix on the other

952
00:53:15,380 --> 00:53:14,580
end I think a lot of people would have

953
00:53:18,050 --> 00:53:15,390
problems with that

954
00:53:20,030 --> 00:53:18,060
but the bigger problem I see is the one

955
00:53:21,770 --> 00:53:20,040
that you mentioned and I've experienced

956
00:53:23,510 --> 00:53:21,780
it in a small way on this show and

957
00:53:26,540 --> 00:53:23,520
that's that what I found is that when

958
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:26,550
people don't talk they're they're

959
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:29,520
they're admitting defeat so on somebody

960
00:53:34,370 --> 00:53:31,680
controversial controversial issues I've

961
00:53:36,260 --> 00:53:34,380
tackled I've been able to get one person

962
00:53:38,450 --> 00:53:36,270
on board and then when you try and get

963
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:38,460
the other person on board they go for a

964
00:53:42,350 --> 00:53:40,530
little while until they see that they

965
00:53:44,090 --> 00:53:42,360
really don't have a position and then

966
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:44,100
they back off and they don't want to

967
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:46,890
come out and publicly be exposed for

968
00:53:50,810 --> 00:53:48,480
their position and they'll make all

969
00:53:52,780 --> 00:53:50,820
sorts of ruckus on the internet and

970
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:52,790
they'll say all sorts of inflammatory

971
00:53:56,870 --> 00:53:55,290
outrageous things but when you say ok

972
00:54:00,020 --> 00:53:56,880
let's engage we'll do it in a neutral

973
00:54:01,670 --> 00:54:00,030
site we'll do it on another show I don't

974
00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:01,680
have to be involved I'll just bring

975
00:54:06,230 --> 00:54:04,260
these two experts together no no they

976
00:54:08,540 --> 00:54:06,240
won't have it and and and whether they

977
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:08,550
whether they know on a conscious level

978
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:11,850
that their that their ideas aren't going

979
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:14,370
to stack up or whether they've just kind

980
00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:15,930
of internalized it in some kind of

981
00:54:20,810 --> 00:54:18,030
subconscious way that hey don't go there

982
00:54:22,970 --> 00:54:20,820
it could you could not look so good for

983
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:22,980
me I don't know but I've seen it happen

984
00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:26,310
over and over again yes exactly that and

985
00:54:33,470 --> 00:54:29,760
that's precisely why we need some sort

986
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:33,480
of a forum that on the one hand has

987
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:37,410
social Authority and on the other hand

988
00:54:47,390 --> 00:54:43,410
is not one-sided or biased and the court

989
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:47,400
system seems to be the you know the best

990
00:54:53,660 --> 00:54:50,730
way that we've found so far of doing

991
00:54:55,820 --> 00:54:53,670
something like that where you know the

992
00:54:59,359 --> 00:54:55,830
important thing in the court system is

993
00:55:05,660 --> 00:54:59,369
people cannot really evade

994
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:05,670
the issues and proceedings are open so

995
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:08,249
that everybody can be informed about

996
00:55:16,329 --> 00:55:13,170
what is going on at the moment you have

997
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:16,339
people on different sides of these so

998
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:19,440
supposedly scientific issues you have

999
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:22,170
them talking past one another

1000
00:55:28,970 --> 00:55:25,130
I've put together a bibliography of

1001
00:55:32,089 --> 00:55:28,980
critiques of medicine that has nearly a

1002
00:55:35,980 --> 00:55:32,099
hundred books and and articles and so on

1003
00:55:39,950 --> 00:55:35,990
on earth and some of these books are by

1004
00:55:44,660 --> 00:55:39,960
editors of the New England Journal of

1005
00:55:48,970 --> 00:55:44,670
Medicine professors at Harvard eminent

1006
00:55:52,759 --> 00:55:48,980
people publishing books from mainstream

1007
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:52,769
respected publishers and nothing changes

1008
00:56:00,529 --> 00:55:57,210
they have pointed out the ills that have

1009
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:00,539
come from the domination by the

1010
00:56:05,390 --> 00:56:03,359
pharmaceutical industry they've given

1011
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:05,400
chapter and verse about that they've

1012
00:56:13,579 --> 00:56:09,210
documented fines that have been paid and

1013
00:56:16,670 --> 00:56:13,589
how the drug company's behavior has not

1014
00:56:19,849 --> 00:56:16,680
changed after they pay these fines

1015
00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:19,859
because they're trivial compared to the

1016
00:56:27,430 --> 00:56:23,160
profits they make from the illegal

1017
00:56:31,009 --> 00:56:27,440
marketing and so on but all of these

1018
00:56:34,579 --> 00:56:31,019
books many of them published in the last

1019
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:34,589
decade or so it's really increasing

1020
00:56:39,650 --> 00:56:35,690
dramatically

1021
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:39,660
it hasn't changed the the mainstream

1022
00:56:46,789 --> 00:56:42,930
professional associations and so on feel

1023
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:46,799
no need to respond now that's really I

1024
00:56:52,609 --> 00:56:49,200
think one of the the real dramatic

1025
00:56:55,970 --> 00:56:52,619
changes in shifts is that dissent isn't

1026
00:56:58,729 --> 00:56:55,980
what it used to be it valued the way it

1027
00:57:01,220 --> 00:56:58,739
used to be and in fact it's turned the

1028
00:57:03,950 --> 00:57:01,230
other way around where where no one does

1029
00:57:06,559 --> 00:57:03,960
feel a need to kind of respond to the

1030
00:57:08,289 --> 00:57:06,569
dissenters other than if they can make a

1031
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:08,299
fool out of them or put them down but

1032
00:57:15,470 --> 00:57:12,810
the dissent is going to riot so

1033
00:57:18,950 --> 00:57:15,480
Crower where does this work take you

1034
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:18,960
from here obviously you're you're still

1035
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:22,290
a part of the sse which is an important

1036
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:24,690
organization in advancing a lot of these

1037
00:57:29,690 --> 00:57:27,450
ideas that don't fit in the mainstream

1038
00:57:31,820 --> 00:57:29,700
and and you're still involved with that

1039
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:31,830
where is your work taking you what are

1040
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:33,690
some of the topics that have really

1041
00:57:39,470 --> 00:57:37,410
popped up into your radar as areas that

1042
00:57:42,410 --> 00:57:39,480
that maybe need our attention in terms

1043
00:57:45,650 --> 00:57:42,420
of knowledge monopolies and research

1044
00:57:49,250 --> 00:57:45,660
cartels I've gotten very much into

1045
00:57:52,490 --> 00:57:49,260
medical matters stimulated in part by

1046
00:57:56,470 --> 00:57:52,500
personal experiences that that led me to

1047
00:57:59,960 --> 00:57:56,480
realize that the usual so-called

1048
00:58:02,750 --> 00:57:59,970
biomarkers that are used and not really

1049
00:58:06,650 --> 00:58:02,760
valid you know everybody believes blood

1050
00:58:10,010 --> 00:58:06,660
pressure indicates the possibility of a

1051
00:58:13,220 --> 00:58:10,020
risk of stroke and heart disease and

1052
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:13,230
heart attack and and so on and that

1053
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:17,760
cholesterol buildup is dangerous these

1054
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:21,330
are simply not true and there's even an

1055
00:58:28,340 --> 00:58:24,530
Institute of Medicine report on

1056
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:28,350
biomarkers that says it flat out it

1057
00:58:32,780 --> 00:58:29,850
doesn't say it flat out

1058
00:58:36,500 --> 00:58:32,790
you've got to read between the lines but

1059
00:58:40,970 --> 00:58:36,510
the data they give show it quite clearly

1060
00:58:43,970 --> 00:58:40,980
and some other people I know who have

1061
00:58:49,220 --> 00:58:43,980
personally suffered from it pointed out

1062
00:58:53,830 --> 00:58:49,230
to me the catastrophe of psychiatric

1063
00:58:58,370 --> 00:58:53,840
drugs one of the most prominent

1064
00:59:01,790 --> 00:58:58,380
psychiatrists David Healy has written a

1065
00:59:08,090 --> 00:59:01,800
stunning book called Farmageddon in

1066
00:59:13,570 --> 00:59:08,100
which he describes how over prescribed

1067
00:59:17,530 --> 00:59:13,580
drugs in general are how incompetently

1068
00:59:22,790 --> 00:59:17,540
or actually deliberately incompetently

1069
00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:22,800
tested they are and and it's really a

1070
00:59:28,350 --> 00:59:24,640
disaster you know

1071
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:28,360
the labels antidepressant anti-anxiety

1072
00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:32,050
mood stabiliser and so on are totally

1073
00:59:39,030 --> 00:59:36,160
unjustified because those drugs don't do

1074
00:59:43,020 --> 00:59:39,040
the specific things that the label

1075
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:43,030
claims that they do they just they give

1076
00:59:47,460 --> 00:59:46,000
the brain a jolt and then there's all

1077
00:59:49,110 --> 00:59:47,470
sorts of other problems right I mean

1078
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:49,120
just in terms of whether they're

1079
00:59:55,050 --> 00:59:51,330
effective I me and depressants have been

1080
00:59:58,020 --> 00:59:55,060
outed for the last at least 10 20 years

1081
01:00:00,600 --> 00:59:58,030
as being not more effective than placebo

1082
01:00:03,030 --> 01:00:00,610
and then there's also the decline effect

1083
01:00:05,790 --> 01:00:03,040
that we have no idea we have no idea

1084
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:05,800
what's going on in terms of why these

1085
01:00:11,460 --> 01:00:09,570
clinical trials over time show less

1086
01:00:13,740 --> 01:00:11,470
effectiveness time and there's so many

1087
01:00:16,770 --> 01:00:13,750
mysteries one of the topics we've

1088
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:16,780
focused on mostly on this show is the

1089
01:00:22,260 --> 01:00:19,330
whole issue of human consciousness

1090
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:22,270
because I think it's in many ways at the

1091
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:25,810
center of this dogmatism and that's this

1092
01:00:32,250 --> 01:00:29,770
idea that all human experience is a

1093
01:00:34,050 --> 01:00:32,260
product of the brain and of course this

1094
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:34,060
has been falsified not only

1095
01:00:38,540 --> 01:00:36,490
philosophically but experimentally over

1096
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:38,550
and over again and you know I was just

1097
01:00:44,910 --> 01:00:41,290
recently I interviewed Jeffery Schwartz

1098
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:44,920
who's a research psychiatrist at UCLA

1099
01:00:50,340 --> 01:00:46,810
School of Medicine right out here in Los

1100
01:00:52,850 --> 01:00:50,350
Angeles who is another story for your

1101
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:52,860
book you know he is groundbreaking

1102
01:00:59,970 --> 01:00:56,410
research on OCD and obsessive-compulsive

1103
01:01:02,640 --> 01:00:59,980
disorder that clearly shows that this

1104
01:01:04,590 --> 01:01:02,650
mind equals brain connection that is at

1105
01:01:07,890 --> 01:01:04,600
the center of this idea of consciousness

1106
01:01:11,190 --> 01:01:07,900
is falsified and what he gets out of it

1107
01:01:12,900 --> 01:01:11,200
is this somebody I think his head of

1108
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:12,910
department told him directly look you're

1109
01:01:17,730 --> 01:01:15,250
lucky you still have a job so can have

1110
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:17,740
you know pica in any and he openly

1111
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:19,930
admits because I am I am lucky I still

1112
01:01:24,810 --> 01:01:22,690
have a job because he sees how this is

1113
01:01:27,990 --> 01:01:24,820
the kind of stuff that is career-ending

1114
01:01:30,630 --> 01:01:28,000
for a lot of people so grind I'm not as

1115
01:01:33,390 --> 01:01:30,640
optimistic as you are that the change

1116
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:33,400
can really come I think the the more we

1117
01:01:38,070 --> 01:01:36,160
dig into this the mysteries get bigger

1118
01:01:40,470 --> 01:01:38,080
and bigger

1119
01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:40,480
and some of the stuff that we we play

1120
01:01:46,830 --> 01:01:43,110
around with I think is is small potatoes

1121
01:01:48,780 --> 01:01:46,840
compared to some of the bigger paradigms

1122
01:01:51,870 --> 01:01:48,790
that we've become stuck in that really

1123
01:01:54,330 --> 01:01:51,880
keep us from moving forward right you

1124
01:01:59,870 --> 01:01:54,340
you may be the only person I know who's

1125
01:02:05,220 --> 01:02:03,060
think you are at heart I can I can see

1126
01:02:07,290 --> 01:02:05,230
it in your book again it's been a great

1127
01:02:10,530 --> 01:02:07,300
pleasure having you on folks the book is

1128
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:10,540
dogmatism in science and medicine how

1129
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:13,330
dominant theories monopolize research

1130
01:02:18,900 --> 01:02:16,720
and stifle the search for truth our

1131
01:02:20,430 --> 01:02:18,910
guest has been dr. Henry Bauer again

1132
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:20,440
Henry thanks so much for joining me

1133
01:02:26,310 --> 01:02:23,200
thank you I enjoyed it Sara Lee this was

1134
01:02:28,170 --> 01:02:26,320
fun thanks again to dr. Henry Bauer for

1135
01:02:30,180 --> 01:02:28,180
joining me today on skeptic oh one

1136
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:30,190
question to tee up from this interview

1137
01:02:34,410 --> 01:02:32,890
and that is how bad is it I'm the guy I

1138
01:02:36,270 --> 01:02:34,420
wrote the book why science is wrong

1139
01:02:38,130 --> 01:02:36,280
about almost everything and since

1140
01:02:39,870 --> 01:02:38,140
writing that book six months ago I got

1141
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:39,880
to tell you I'm more and more convinced

1142
01:02:42,540 --> 01:02:41,770
that science is even more wrong than I

1143
01:02:44,850 --> 01:02:42,550
imagined

1144
01:02:46,650 --> 01:02:44,860
I think dr. Bauer's book adds a couple

1145
01:02:49,110 --> 01:02:46,660
more weights on the side of the scale

1146
01:02:51,390 --> 01:02:49,120
that says science is hopelessly running

1147
01:02:54,330 --> 01:02:51,400
off the rails but let's see what you

1148
01:02:57,030 --> 01:02:54,340
think maybe it's not as bad as I think

1149
01:02:59,340 --> 01:02:57,040
the place to share your opinions on this

1150
01:03:03,870 --> 01:02:59,350
or other shows is of course to the

1151
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:03,880
skeptic Oh website at ske P tik o dot

1152
01:03:07,710 --> 01:03:05,770
com join us for a discussion on the

1153
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:07,720
forum or send me an email or connect

1154
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:09,610
with me on Facebook I have a couple of

1155
01:03:13,410 --> 01:03:11,440
good shows coming up there in the hopper

1156
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:13,420
waiting for me to put them out and then

1157
01:03:18,630 --> 01:03:16,090
hopefully for you to listen to them by

1158
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:18,640
the way dude share the skeptical love

1159
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:20,290
with whoever you think might want to

1160
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:22,210
hear about it share links with your

1161
01:03:25,410 --> 01:03:24,250
friends right about us blog about us I

1162
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:25,420
know there's a lot of really smart

1163
01:03:29,310 --> 01:03:27,250
people out there who write blogs and

1164
01:03:30,900 --> 01:03:29,320
write books it's always gratifying to

1165
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:30,910
hear you say that you like these

1166
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:32,410
interviews and you use them in your

1167
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:34,450
material and you link to them so if

1168
01:03:39,300 --> 01:03:36,250
that's something you feel inclined to do

1169
01:03:41,430 --> 01:03:39,310
please do it well that's going to take